Fantasy T maps

[TheRatmeister]

Agreed, but those shops cluster still closer to the trolley stop than the Fairmount Line. Pairs of names that feel right to me (Fairmount Line, Trolley):

• Woodhaven, Mattapan
• Mattapan Landing, Mattapan Sq
• Mattapan Landing, Mattapan Loop

I currently have it as 3 stops since there's a lot going on. Right now the first stop interchanges with the Fairmount Line and is called Woodhaven, the second stop is located at Fairway St to directly serve the shops there and is called Mattapan Sq, and the last is the interchange with the RL called Mattapan Yard and is where the current "Mattapan" station is.

 

[kdmc]

I currently have it as 3 stops since there's a lot going on. Right now the first stop interchanges with the Fairmount Line and is called Woodhaven, the second stop is located at Fairway St to directly serve the shops there and is called Mattapan Sq, and the last is the interchange with the RL called Mattapan Yard and is where the current "Mattapan" station is.

Gottt it, I should have read your map better, sorry for making you re-explain yourself. Those names all sound right to me, then.

I'd still vote for "Mattapan Loop" as the trolley terminus since it sounds more downtown-ey than "Mattapan Yard", but that's just my own nitpicky aesthetics.

 

[TheRatmeister]

Gottt it, I should have read your map better, sorry for making you re-explain yourself. Those names all sound right to me, then.

I'd still vote for "Mattapan Loop" as the trolley terminus since it sounds more downtown-ey than "Mattapan Yard", but that's just my own nitpicky aesthetics.

On the one hand, having Mattapan Sq and Mattapan Yard nicely parallels Watertown Sq/Yard, but on the other hand Mattapan Loop sounds cooler, and let's be honest a lot of fantasy map making is rule of cool based.

 

[Teban54]

On the one hand, having Mattapan Sq and Mattapan Yard nicely parallels Watertown Sq/Yard, but on the other hand Mattapan Loop sounds cooler, and let's be honest a lot of fantasy map making is rule of cool based.

FYI, "XXX Loop" isn't without precedent in Boston either: The 36 bus has a stop that's officially named "Charles River Loop".

 

[Delvin4519]

FYI, "XXX Loop" isn't without precedent in Boston either: The 36 bus has a stop that's officially named "Charles River Loop".

I've used that name for my fantasy/unrealistic extensions of mainline HRT to Millenium Park and Dedham Mall. That area has had route terminals called "Charles River Loop" for the 36, and the 34 used to terminate at "Dedham Line", before the late 2019 bus routing (IIRC?) changes extended it a few extra blocks to "Dedham Mall".

I try to avoid using streets because it sometimes feels like it suggests that the only notable thing about the station is what road it's next to, not who or what it serves. Same with cardinal direction names, I feel like that says that the only interesting thing about a place is that it's kinda near some better place. Obviously this makes finding names significantly more difficult.

I've always been bothered with the Green Line's street running stops being on the subway maps, (they're on there since it's essentially a "urban rail + KBR map" and not a "rapid transit map"). For me, I generally treat them as streetcar lines as they are, or group them with bus routes, on my own maps. The only stops on streetcar/bus routes that I'd ever feel like assigning names would be whenever they intersect and meet another bus route, or if the streetcar/bus line is converted to proper rapid transit with rapid transit stop spacing.

Local stop services like buses & streetcars I'd assume only ever use the names of streets/roads, save for major squares where they may intersect another transit route. Only for rapid transit or mainline rail stop services would go the effort of assigning proper names for stops.

 

[HenryAlan]

Isn't the trolley stop much closer to what people actually seem to consider Mattapan Square (Blue Hills Ave X Cummins Hwy)?

This is based on my one visit to the neighborbood, so anyone who knows better please correct me.

As somebody who goes to the area often (the Neponsett trail is outstanding), my opinion:

The Blue Hill Ave exit from the Fairmount Line platform is at the edge of the Square. The Cummins Hwy exit is distinctly not in the Square. The Square itself is exclusively on Blue Hill Ave, running north from Cummins Hwy to right before the Fairmount Line tracks. Essentially, both stations are at the edge of the Square, so neither wins on geography alone. But I'd say the trolley station has a long history of association with Mattapan Square and should be named accordingly. The railroad station is mostly not in the Square, lacks recent history, and therefore could easily be named for something else (Woodhaven, Mattahunt, Blue Hill).

 

[Arenacale]

View attachment 50141
We're going to call this the finger edition. Now that I've got the Green Line (mostly) done, the main reason I'm here is that I'm looking for feedback and suggestions for a whole wack ton of station names, both to make sure ones I've chosen make sense and to make the ones I haven't renamed yet less boring. I've got the C Branch, Arborway Line, and Fairmount Line mostly covered, the A and F branches are about half and half, and the B branch is not great. Here's a Google Mymaps with all the station locations. (edit: fixed)

• The one that's really bothering me is Mattapan. I've chosen "Woodhaven" for the BHA Fairmount Line stop, but I've gone back and forth on what to call the stops at Mattapan Sq and the current Mattapan station. A previous iteration had "Mattapan Sq" and "Lower Neponset" respectively, but it just didn't feel right.
• I'm fine with keeping Heath St, it has name recognition, but all the other "_____ St/Rd/Ave" ones I'd really like to have something more interesting for.

As a BLS alum, that "Boston Latin" station is grating on me. That's Latin Academy, not Boston Latin. Sumus Primi, etc.

 

[TheRatmeister]

Getting the UR to make a perfect U is so satisfying that I just need to share it. While I'm here, if there was a station under the Tobin Bridge at Tremont St, should it be called Charlestown, Bunker Hill, Navy Yard, or something else?

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

This might just be my preference, but I'd suggest adding a slight white highlight around each line. You've got it on the Washington St GL branch as it crosses the CR, and it looks good.

 

[TheRatmeister]

This might just be my preference, but I'd suggest adding a slight white highlight around each line. You've got it on the Washington St GL branch as it crosses the CR, and it looks good.

Yeah this is what the official MBTA style does, but I'm still finalizing the actual layout of the lines and so I just haven't gotten around to finishing up all the details. There's still some missing station names, missing terminus line blobs, missing outlines over the water and CR, etc. The only part of this map I'd consider truly finished is the SW Corridor and Huntington Ave.

 

[kdmc]

View attachment 50287
Getting the UR to make a perfect U is so satisfying that I just need to share it. While I'm here, if there was a station under the Tobin Bridge at Tremont St, should it be called Charlestown, Bunker Hill, Navy Yard, or something else?

Constitution?

 

[BentFryingPan]

I've been working on my first little Fantasy T map for a while, and I think it's more or less ready for some critique. It's very much inspired by Riverside & TheRatmister's Gold/Pink/D to E + Marginal Subway ideas. I've also included the Red X + various other extensions that are often discussed here. As far as I'm aware, most things here are possible, at least from an engineering perspective. Maybe just envision it as 1000 years from now. haha :')

The biggest (and almost certainly least feasible) addition is a new violet "Line 5", going from Saugus to downtown and then out to Kendall, Central, down Western Avenue all the way to Waltham. I can't speak on the engineering here (I'm envisioning an amount of elevated + tunneling that would be wildly expensive, if not politically impossible). This was more or less a thought experiment for where a new metro line could go. With that in mind, I've included a "Two for One" deal; an additional map without that line. Here the Blue (Line 4) takes the western half and the new Red X branch (Line 2) takes the northern half.

Any way here they are!

MBTA Maxima:

MBTA Maxima (Alt):

Here's the lines on Google Map as Reference (for the first version only).

Other thoughts:

• Could the Somerville D branch in theory make it to Woburn Center via the Haverhill/Nashua Line? I originally had it going this far but truncated it as the ROW does not seem wide enough.
• I know the F Line past MLK Blvd is contentious, I'm assuming all cut and cover through the South End to Franklin Park and then elevated on Blue Hill Ave to Mattapan. In the "Alt / Realistic" version I've truncated this. It just felt right to take the F line to Franklin Park, and then there's so much open space so why not go all the way to Mattapan?
• If you're doing the above why not take the J/E to Forest Hills? Yeah probably you're right.
• The Urban ring service patterns are probably way too long. In whatever real life operation would actually happen I think the Airport connection would terminate at Longwood / Ruggles.
• I also kept the Urban Ring patterns separate from the traditional radial routes, I know at of folks have had Chelsea branching into the Central Subway, or perhaps a BC towards Kendall route. It's been discussed before but I'm really not sure how to pull that off on a map (yet!), it seems messy. Also not really sure what service patterns would be best here.
• I've terminate the Blue Line at West Station in the non-Alt Version, I think it could also either replace the A line or simply go along the Pike instead of regional rail. Wasn't really sure what would give the best service to North Newton honestly.
• Speaking of Regional Rail, there are only a couple changes:
  • Wayyyy more trains (duh), classic 15 minute frequencies where possible, especially on P1 through Roxbury/Dorchester
  • A couple extensions to
    • Concord, NH (and we're gonna make New Hampshire pay for it too)
    • Hyannis (sorry Cape Flyer)
    • Westerly, RI (with connections to the Shore Line East for better connections to CT)
    • Exeter, NH via Haverhill (I think it could even go to Durham for the university there, almost certainly a version 1.6 change)
    • Portsmouth, NH via Newburyport (I think we'd need to invade NH to get all these done, they might be least realistic part of this exercise)
• Aesthetically:
  • Back Bay / Kenmore is way too tight and doesn't look amazing, I know. Graphic Design is My Passion.
  • I know there's no classic Charles River (and there probably should be). I've been using Visio and it was not looking good, I'll try sometime later. Sorry!

Anyway, this brings together a lot of the ideas I've seen and resonated with on this forum, I hope it encapsulates them well. It's certainly nice to dream about what things could be versus what we have hahaha

 

[Riverside]

I probably won’t get a chance to reply in depth for a little while, but just wanted to say, those look awesome!!

 

[BentFryingPan]

Very happy to hear that! I've really enjoyed reading your posts, so it means a lot

 

[Riverside]

Very happy to hear that! I've really enjoyed reading your posts, so it means a lot

That's so kind of you to say! I am glad

Can I do this briefly/quickly? Let's see!

First I'll reply to your written thoughts:

Other thoughts:

• Could the Somerville D branch in theory make it to Woburn Center via the Haverhill/Nashua Line? I originally had it going this far but truncated it as the ROW does not seem wide enough.

Feasibility notwithstanding, it definitely has been crayoned many times (including on that cool 1945 BTC map). That being said, the mainline tracks there could (potentially) see very high cumulative services. Half-hourly services to Lowell and Haverhill alone would already get you (potentially) to 15-min headways. Layer in some short-turns and you can easily get to 10-min headways, which would almost certainly be sufficient.

• I know the F Line past MLK Blvd is contentious, I'm assuming all cut and cover through the South End to Franklin Park and then elevated on Blue Hill Ave to Mattapan. In the "Alt / Realistic" version I've truncated this. It just felt right to take the F line to Franklin Park, and then there's so much open space so why not go all the way to Mattapan?

A lot to say (and a lot that has been said) on this topic, but either way I think it's good to include on an out-and-out "fantasy map", and I also think that grade separation would make such a line much more feasible.

• If you're doing the above why not take the J/E to Forest Hills? Yeah probably you're right.

Well, one difference is that Blue Hill Ave is much wider than the Arborway corridor, which would make it friendlier to constructing grade-separated transit.

• The Urban ring service patterns are probably way too long. In whatever real life operation would actually happen I think the Airport connection would terminate at Longwood / Ruggles.

Yes, probably a bit long if there are significant surface-running segments. If fully grade separated, it might be more feasible!

One critique is that the yellow is definitely harder to read, and the "shields" with the line name in a colored circle are very difficult to read with the yellow. You might consider making the yellow either darker or more saturated, and/or using black/dark grey text in the shields.

(Dealing with the yellow of my Gold Line was a major reason my map uses a dark background.)

• I also kept the Urban Ring patterns separate from the traditional radial routes, I know at of folks have had Chelsea branching into the Central Subway, or perhaps a BC towards Kendall route. It's been discussed before but I'm really not sure how to pull that off on a map (yet!), it seems messy. Also not really sure what service patterns would be best here.

I think Chelsea is handled well by your 5 and 2 Lines! But yes, the more "creative" routes can definitely become difficult to map clearly.

• I've terminate the Blue Line at West Station in the non-Alt Version, I think it could also either replace the A line or simply go along the Pike instead of regional rail. Wasn't really sure what would give the best service to North Newton honestly.

There are so many possibilities for crayoning here, and pretty hard to say that any of them in particular are "best". One option might be to extend it to Newton Corner and then up to Watertown Square, for a big ol' transfer station. But I also think the straightforward option of extending to Auburndale or Riverside is compelling. You'd have to steal some lanes on the Mass Pike, but honestly, now that I look at it, you wouldn't actually need to steal that much.

I do like the option in the Alt version too. The Watertown <> Waltham corridor is always tricky, but your alignment via Main St would be my first thought for a subway or el.

• Speaking of Regional Rail, there are only a couple changes:

Great stuff on all of these

• Concord, NH (and we're gonna make New Hampshire pay for it too)

lol

• Exeter, NH via Haverhill (I think it could even go to Durham for the university there, almost certainly a version 1.6 change)

Yeah, Durham is a big draw. There actually was (mid-century, IIRC) limited commuter service all the way from Dover (@The EGE would know better than me), so there's certainly precedent.

Need to run but I'll try to reply with more fun things I noticed later!

 

[Longfellow]

Will note that there is extant bus service between Dover Portsmouth and Durham by UNH. There’s also the COAST bus. My mom lived in Portsmouth and took the UNH bus to commute to school. There is or was a real demand for service, but those cities have become extremely suburbanized including Portsmouth

 

[TheRatmeister]

I do like the option in the Alt version too. The Watertown <> Waltham corridor is always tricky, but your alignment via Main St would be my first thought for a subway or el.

I have BL to Brandeis/Roberts on my almost finished map as well, the route I'm using for my head-cannon is a TBM tunnel from the current Longwood D Branch stop to Watertown Sq via Coolidge Corner, Brighton Center, and Arsenal Yards, then continuing west before surfacing at the current Watertown Ford and continuing at or just below grade through The Chemistry before diving into a short tunnel to reach Waltham Center before resurfacing for the last time to follow the Fitchburg Line to Brandeis/Roberts. I think that could get you down to only 6 deep level stations between Charles/MGH and Brandeis/Roberts.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Other thoughts:

• Could the Somerville D branch in theory make it to Woburn Center via the Haverhill/Nashua Line? I originally had it going this far but truncated it as the ROW does not seem wide enough.

Not anymore. The Woburn Branch had its property lines reverted back to abutters all points inside Town of Winchester, meaning the legalities of trying to string together anything here are extremely complex. It's also encroached on in a couple spots, and had some really bad grade crossing clusters that are going to clobber performance. Any GLXX-Woburn is going to stay bolted to the mainline to Anderson RTC with the Montvale Ave. infill stop providing walking-distance and bus access to Woburn Center. Not ideal, but the best you're going to get.

• Speaking of Regional Rail, there are only a couple changes:
  • Wayyyy more trains (duh), classic 15 minute frequencies where possible, especially on P1 through Roxbury/Dorchester
  • A couple extensions to
    • Concord, NH (and we're gonna make New Hampshire pay for it too)

The last time Concord was studied they split the services, because travel times start getting too long that far past the border. They had 15 round-trips terminating in Nashua (pulse that up to :30 minute RER frequencies), and only 4 RT's doing Manchester-Concord on a super-express stop pattern that went Anderson<==>Lowell<==>Nashua then started picking up the local NH stops. Today the focus is on doing all-locals to Downtown Manchester, which is a lot better because that'll scale up nicely to Regional Rail. Leaves Concord in a bit of a lurch, though. It's a small destination for a super-express pattern separate from Manchester, but an excruciatingly long schedule for a local. There's probably a solution there with judicious schedule slicing-and-dicing, but it hasn't been studied in great detail yet.

• Hyannis (sorry Cape Flyer)

I have a hard time seeing Hyannis meriting more than hourly service, so there'd probably be a draw-down of the :30 RER frequencies at Buzzards Bay. If you want to get really foamy, rail reactivation to Falmouth Depot can split those :30 BB frequencies to an hourlies each to Falmouth and Hyannis, which probably covers the spread nicely for the Cape.

• Westerly, RI (with connections to the Shore Line East for better connections to CT)

That's RIDOT's bag for intrastate commuter rail. It's much too excruciatingly long to run that as a linear schedule from Boston (it didn't work too well the various times Amtrak and NYNH&H tried commuter-oriented long runs). Fine for a Westerly-Pawtucket local that has transfer opportunities at Providence and Pawtucket to :30 BOS-PVD Regional Rail, but total extracurricular for the MBTA's purposes.

• Exeter, NH via Haverhill (I think it could even go to Durham for the university there, almost certainly a version 1.6 change)

Dover service lasted into the MBTA era to 1967. And Dover's over twice as large as Durham and includes Rochester in its overall catchment, so I think you're going that far if any super-extended Haverhill service crosses the state line. Problem is the travel time...1:30 on a Downeaster and 1:52 on a 1967 B&M local. That's rough, and there's not a lot of raw speedup potential on the Western Route. You'd almost have to mount it as a super-express that hops Anderson<==>Lawrence<==>Haverhill then goes local in NH to keep it anything close to tolerable, and I don't know what the ridership would be for that.

• Portsmouth, NH via Newburyport (I think we'd need to invade NH to get all these done, they might be least realistic part of this exercise)

Studied 20 years ago, and very ops-straightforward. An all-local to Newburyport would take 1:35 to Portsmouth if there were extension stops in Seabrook, Hampton, North Hampton, and Portsmouth. On diesel push-pull, nevermind if EMU's slimmed it down a little.

 

[thepixelnation]

suggestions for station names

big nitpick here but I think shortening "Hatch Memorial Shell" to "Hatch Shell" might be worth it, though I can totally hear "Hatch Memorial Shell" in Frank's voice